EP 347 - From Therapist to Thriving Coaching Business with Dr. Cheryl Williams-Jackson
If you're a therapist, psychologist, social worker, or any kind of helping professional wondering whether you could build a coaching business alongside (or instead of) your clinical work, this conversation is for you. Dr. Cheryl has done exactly that, and she's sharing how she did it, what changed, and what she wishes she'd known sooner.
Dr. Cheryl is one of our clients inside the Business Building Boutique, and her story is the kind every helping professional needs to hear. She started building her coaching practice back in the nineties (yes, with a flyer and a library card), grew it alongside a 30-year teaching career, and is now stepping fully into her business with confidence, clarity, and a thriving group program for women in the helping professions.
In this episode, we'll walk through:
How Dr. Cheryl built a coaching business while working full-time as faculty
Why therapists and helping professionals make incredible coaches (and the ethics that matter)
The difference between therapy and coaching, and how to keep them separate
How personal branding turned strangers into clients who said "I just knew I'd like you"
Why she calls coaching her "porch conversation" and how it shapes her brand
The systems and frameworks that finally made her business feel organized
What Dr. Cheryl teaches inside her Shifting Into Peace program for helping professionals
If you're a therapist, counselor, or helping professional thinking about coaching, this episode will give you permission, language, and a roadmap. Dr. Cheryl is proof that you can honor the clinical work you've done and build something new that gives you more flexibility, more income, and more joy.
Ready to figure out what your coaching business could look like? Book a free Business Blueprint Call with me here: https://www.debbieshadid.com/schedule
Connect with Dr. Cheryl Williams-Jackson:
Dr. Cheryl is the Founder of WJ Develop Mental Consultants and Dr. Cheryl Coaching. She helps women who carry too much rebuild calm, confidence, and balance through simple, sustainable shifts that restore peace and clarity, so they can enjoy their profession without burnout, be fully present at home, and set healthy boundaries without guilt.
Website: https://drcherylcoaching.co/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drcherylcoaching/
Connect with me, Debbie Shadid:
Website: https://www.debbieshadid.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/debbieshadid/
Listen to the Podcast:
Life Coach Business Building School Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/life-coach-business-building-school-with-debbie-shadid/id1502118085
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Transcript
Well, if you are a coach who is wondering about growing your coaching business and having fun while you do it, this episode is for you. I wanna introduce you to one of our clients, somebody who's a lot of fun to be around with, and who also has a thriving coaching business. I want you to meet Dr. Cheryl. Dr. Cheryl. How would you like us to call you? Actually, would you like it to be Dr. Cheryl Jackson Williams? Oh, no, just Dr. Cheryl. That's all okay? Yeah. Okay. Got it. Got it. Okay. Well, tell us about you. Tell us about how you ended up here, what your journey to coaching has been, and just everything we need to know about you. Oh goodness. I always joke and I say that I started my, coaching business with a librarian. A computer and that was it because at that time when computers, first came out, now I'm dating myself, the internet wasn't that big, about giving information around coaching. And I pretty much started by going to the library and just trying to find out how to start a business. And from there I started doing things like offering parenting conference.'cause my background is child development, but also every degree I have is in psychology. But my focus has been on children and families. And as I've been going through and I started my business, I just decided that I can expand it even further. I didn't know anything at the time about mindset. I didn't know what coaching was, all of these things. So over the years I've just been educating myself on it. I've spent. 30 years teaching, never planned on becoming a teacher. I was going to become a, child psychologist and still became a therapist, but decided that, teaching was where I loved. it was just something about it that brought me joy. 30 years of teaching psychology, human services and children. I then became a, oh goodness. I have to try to remember the name. But anyway, it's where I figured out how to bring all of them together, and now they live in my coaching business. So how long ago were you thinking that I wanna create a side hustle, because I do know that you just recently retired from Career. So how long ago was it that you're like, I'm gonna have a business of some kind? What was the thought process around that? I have to say, when I was finishing my bachelor degree, I remember writing in my journal that one day I'm going to educate. One day I'm gonna be a therapist, and never really figured at that time, and when the opportunity came up, something came across my desk, with the word coaching. So I'm looking at it, thinking, oh, softball, volleyball, and I say, well, I don't wanna do any of that. And then I saw the word life in front of it. Life coach and I went, let me check this out. I have no idea who it was that first introduced me to it, but it was just a flyer, a, a paper flyer that had it on there. And then I started exploring it and decided then with all the knowledge I had already learned, how can I turn that into something to help other people? And that was as far as I got. and then I got into providing therapy and, working at a women's crisis center. And I realized I don't wanna just focus on the intervention. I wanna try to be there before, you know, the prevention, how can I help people to gain these skills? and slowly I've started learning that's a part of life coaching. And I can name it, it can be where I focus on a certain area, but we're talking about, oh my gosh, way back in the nineties, you know of it coming, that flyer coming across my desk and me figuring out. How do I, turn this into something that may not have to live in someone's clinic, you know, where I'm able to put it out there to the world. Wow, that's so amazing. I didn't know that part of the story, but when did you actually like officially say, oh, alright, I'm gonna be in business now. You had this idea of brewing. When did it start? I'm gonna be in business. Oh, literally, not even a year after that flyer came across, I wanna say maybe six months later. So we're talking 96, 19 96 probably. And, from there the way that I started was I didn't wanna wait until I out the business, since I learned, you know, in California the way that we are able to create our businesses, if I can use my name, I can just start doing the job. So I just started offering parenting coaching at that point. and from there it just has expanded where I got more like. Training and, things like that. And it, I'm constantly thinking of what else can I do, they call us a multipotentialite, and so you can find, look it up, I forget her name, who, who first introduced me to that. But I began to take all of these things and became a multipotential, which is, figure out how to bring them together.'cause somehow in your mind, you figured that out. and so now get it down on paper. And so I just started writing it down on paper six months afterward. and to the point that my daughters were always asking, mom, what are you doing? You know, and I put a flyer out and people came to the training and next thing I know, I'm doing trainings all over the United States on other topics, but, in the nineties, when I noticed that I became the go-to person, and especially for one organization, I went, I think I might have something here. And yeah. And it just kept going. I can't believe when I think back, I can't believe I did. That's how I started. Okay. It's crazy because today even somebody who's listening to this episode might be saying like, I don't know about this coaching thing. Like, not everybody understands it, not everybody knows it, and I'm always saying that too, our job is to really help people understand coaching and what it is and the value of it. Here you're talking about in the nineties. Yeah. And here we are, Yeah. Three decades later you were having to explain to people I'm sure what a coach actually was. Yeah. And what that looked like. wow. You're an innovator girl, I think. And one of the things I used to say is, I walk alongside you. That was what I used to say back then. and when they would ask, what is a coach? Because I still was learning what it was. And, that's when I found, What is it? ICFI think it was. And I started reading all of theirs, their ethical codes and all of that. and at the time, I didn't know anything other than that about it, but I just continued to build. And I happened to meet one person that was in my graduate program, and she said she wanted to be a coach. And I went, I wanna be one too. how do you define it? And then I found out we were defining it in the same way, which was we wanted to walk along with people and help them to see. What, if they have in their minds that they want to do something with their life, what's stopping you? And they literally just needed someone at that moment to say, what's stopping you? And then someone to help them to build the path. And so she and I, this other individual, we started actually putting together what that would look like. We would meet Zoom wasn't around at the time. Yeah. So we literally would meet up in our graduate program. We would meet once a semester in Santa Barbara. Oh wow. How fun would that be? And so we would meet there and we would sit down and literally map out what our coaching program was gonna look like. and at the time we wasn't even calling it coaching, we was calling it our course. But what I realize now, it actually was coaching because even though we had a course there, we also had weekly meetings with individuals. At the time, I didn't know about group coaching at the time. I only knew about individual. And so we would map it out and then we would check in with each other on the phone and say, yeah, it's working. And then I met another friend who, was in my, program. and we did the same thing where we mapped out something and we started offering together trainings together. And then, realized again, we're doing coaching. that is so fun. And the marketing, my brain thinks in marketing, we're gonna talk about marketing here and what you're doing in your own business. But you know, because I have been in business so long as well, the piece that so many coaches today are missing is the part where you're just talking to people. And I always say. And you understand this more than anyone is like, business doesn't have to be hard. We can get tangled up with technology, but you don't actually need any of it. Like you said, you got a flyer and my mind is going to like, okay, so if you were meeting people and you had clients, that means literally like you were networking and people knew who you were and you were like telling people and like on the phone talking to 'em about what you could do. And that's like old school. But in reality, what I always tell coaches is. That is the fastest path to a client and we don't do that anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Having that real meeting somebody or getting a referral or something. so that's how you did that? Yeah. And how I started, I would never, ever think of changing because it really got me to the place where I ended up, really I'm gonna use the word need because now I feel it. I needed what you know about marketing because I literally never had to market. what I was doing at that time was giving presentations at conferences. I would offer like one training to an organization, and then from there I would give them, at the time it was still sheet of paper that said, here's what I can offer in my six week program or my eight week program. I never had to really market, but yet I would have business that was going on.'cause I didn't know what the difference between sales and marketing, none of that. I understood. I just knew how to sit and talk with people and got clients. But then when I came to you, I was finding that I needed to introduce something new, and that new, is that the technology that we have? How can I use the technology to do this? because, the world changes. And for me, that was the change. And I always, joke and say that I came to you for mindset and, marketing because I needed, the mindset.'cause I'd never had that, I believed in, myself getting therapy when I needed it, but. I needed someone that I can bounce off. Here's what I'm thinking about doing. Here's what I'm doing right now. Do you see how I can do this a different way? but I need it. That's what I figured out. I need it. And I now say I'll never be without a coach anymore. yeah, that's always what I say too. if you're a coach, you really need a coach. Yeah. And you need that person, we talked about your husband a moment ago. Mm-hmm. while he's amazing, and my husband is too. they don't get what you're trying to do or really understanding. You can explain all that you want to. Yeah. But they're not really in it the same way that and I love, and just so you know, I love my husband, how he thinks about my business though. Just this morning he woke up and I'm thinking. Oh, I love that he's thinking about it. He was saying, I thought about when you do your guidebooks at the end of it, you know, you can add this and you can do this and that, and then that will lead to this. And I'm sitting there going, oh my gosh, this is so beautiful that he's thinking about it. I'm not even gonna tell him. Debbie already told me that, Oh my he'll probably hear it now. Yeah. Yeah. Well that's awesome. I mean that yeah, the fantastic to have a number one fan. yeah. who is on your team, that's for sure. So how many years were you actually making money in your business before you and I connected? And I know just a little short part of that is you said you'd been like reading my emails for, I don't know, two or three years or something. But how long before you and I started working together? Were you Successfully making money without ever having gotten any help? yeah, pretty much I started, reaching out and I call it my investment years, because that's when, in the year, 2020 was when I actually started investing in, where I had my very first coach. everything else was me just on YouTube, listening to individuals. and that was it. I wasn't even listening to podcasts or anything. I don't even know if I knew what a podcast was. Yeah. And we're talking 2020. but that was when I started, to really invest in, coaching, was 2020. because I knew I was making a shift because, pretty much all of us was going online with our things but before that it was really me just providing presentations. But it got to the point where, with. Many organizations, I was making videos for them. And I would walk into places and people would say, I know her, but I can't remember how I know her. I remember walking into one, college and, I was there to do a series of trainings with and coaching with their staff, and one individual came out of the class and she's helping me, and she's oh my gosh, you're here. and I'm like, I'm thinking she's part of the program. But actually what she was saying was that I've seen you in videos, and it's been training videos that she was seeing me in because of the organizations that I work with as a consultant. I would be one of the ones speaking for them. And there's one organization that I've been with, the very first one that I had in, I always remember 1996, and I'm still with them to this day, but things like work I've done with the state of California, with I travel to different states and I do trainings for them and individuals end up becoming my clients, through that. So I've never had to really advertise. Also, I put a limit because I love my boundaries. A limit on, because since I was a full-time tenured faculty, I would only work with two organizations, a year. I would have little guests speaking things and keynotes here and there, but I was very mindful of my time, which I would not change because it kept my name out there while I had this job as a full-time faculty. And I forgot to tell you, Debbie, I also still work in the clinic, a clinic. I still work there. I decide no longer to provide therapy, but I'm there supporting our future psych clinical psychologist and our future therapist. So I still do that to this day. Yeah. And how much do you do that every month? Is that one day a month? Yeah. That, no, that's once a week. Once a week, okay. Yeah. My whole Thursday is blocked off and it's just for the clinic. Well, I mean, good for you. That's fantastic. I never encourage anyone to. Just ditch their job. In fact, I remember when you came to work with me and you were talking about your job and when you were gonna leave. I'm like, all right, now let's figure this out. In my mind, I don't want anyone to just walk away from, a salary and not be ready for retirement, all that. But the great thing about you is when you came to us, you were already making money. Yeah. I was making my plan, my exit plan right there. But all, none of it I would change about the journey that I've on, And even though I was watching, everything that you were doing for the last three, well now it's four years 'cause I've been with you now. Have I been with you for a year? I think Year. I think so. Yeah. Close to a year. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not gonna leave until you kick me out. I'm not kicking you out. No, no. But, for me, I want to say when I started, seeing and going into some of your free sessions that you have had, and just really walking away. Learning so much, but it dawned on me at that point, it still wasn't clicking in the beginning that you were talking marketing. Because what I was hearing was a lot of Oh yeah, the mindset work, but also the coaching. And it didn't dawn on me until I enrolled in your program right before that. Oh. She focuses on marketing and that's what I need. So sometimes it's a journey for individuals to get to you, I always say. And that's what, I guess what we mean by meeting people where they are. I wasn't there yet, but yet you allowed me to come into a space with you so that you can walk alongside me. And finally I got there and I'm happy to be here. I think every coach I've had has been wonderful and I've learned something from them. But now I'm here where this is what I needed. Yesterday I did a training inside of another organization and I had a screenshot of one of our coaching sessions. and for anybody listening, I think it's important to note that. We all fit on one screen together. The screen, the zoom screen, it's myself and Thais sometimes, most of the time. And then just a very small handful of people. Everybody gets the support that they want. In fact, our new client this morning, who's also a former therapist, she asked me, well, how many people are in the call? She'd already paid and joined. And then she said, how many people? And I said, well, let me just show you where the replays are and I'll show you the screens. And like the first call had five clients, the second one had eight clients. She's like, oh my gosh. I had no, I mean, I was scared that there was gonna be so many people, I wouldn't get my questions answered. I said, oh, no, no. If there gets to be so many people, I'll just open up another hour. Mm-hmm. but I love to share that you have to have people in all stages. And so our job as marketers is to be. Remembering that, right. You were on the journey and reading the emails and when you and I met on our call and I said, well, what brings you to the call? You said, I've used every free thing I can use, and I'm basically out of, I need more than that. I've done it all. Yeah. And it was like, oh, interesting. And when you told me how long you'd been reading emails, I was like, wow, okay. Yeah. It's just again, evidence that you never know where people are in their journey. when you think your marketing isn't working, Cheryl, you are proof that the marketing was working. Yeah. It was working. It just 'cause when you came, you were ready. Yeah. And it's about learning to trust the process, And that's one thing actually in working as a therapist, that a therapist I learned was about trusting the process. That it, because it's hard for us to do that when we've never seen the results of it. You don't know what the future is gonna hold. but for me, I'm pretty much now in that place where. I don't take it as serious. I think the, I don't know how to say this, but in other words, every day, every moment I'm appreciating it and I'm learning from it. And so I'm not saying in my mind, this is not gonna work. What I'm actually saying is, what part of this is will work for me or is working for me? And then I just keep going on that journey, And. So far at the age that I'm at now, I feel like it's been working, so I think I'll stick with that, But in the moment is what I'm thinking about what's working right now. And I'll just tell you, this week, in our coaching session with you, you know, I have this big linear, calendar that I use and I've been working on it, and there was just something still missing and I got so excited that I had to, I don't know if you saw, I had to post in our Facebook group right away that, yeah, thank you. It was like this light bulb went off for me and all of a sudden I'm writing Q1, Q2, and you didn't even talk about that, but it popped in my head from what we were talking about. But also, oh my gosh, I now see. How I can do my YouTube, because before it was spotty, I'll do one on Wednesday, I'll post it. But now I'm able to see how it connects to my shifting into peace program. Yes. And how I can take the parts of that roadmap and those becomes my, oh my gosh, all of that. I had to sit here after that, coaching session and just say, My head is spinning right now. Why is it spinning? Because something just clicked. You need to write this down. So I don't know if you saw, I actually had it here and I pulled it up and I just sat here filling it out, and I'm sitting there going, oh my gosh. I know what I'm doing next week. That is it. That is it, Cheryl, you figured that out. Now it makes sense because I have said many times, and I repeat things and no matter where you are on the journey, it's like it clicks in different ways. And I say to people like, look, we can make a marketing plan for you for a year in an hour. And people are like, oh yeah, right. Well, we just made a marketing plan for you in an hour because it's, you know, without going into all the details here and teaching it all here Yes. You know what you're gonna talk about, you know where you're gonna market. And YouTube is part of that. Yeah. And it's oh, okay. Like you said, I love this idea of there's no stress over, what am I doing next week? It's like I know what I'm doing next week. Yeah. And you can even be today or through the weekend, thinking about from an inspired point of view, not from a panic point of view. Mm-hmm. But an inspired point of view of oh, next week I get to talk about this. How do I wanna do this? Right. And I have to tell you one other thing. and I'm writing it down so I don't forget the story I wanna tell you'cause I haven't shared this with you. I did share it with Thais but, when we do the three steps at the beginning, yeah. That was powerful. There was one part that I, the personal branding, I just remember going, I don't know what this part is about, but I'll do it. I don't know what it's about, but then it caught up with me. Now we're talking months later. Mm-hmm. The personal branding caught up with me. And the way that it caught up with was after the summit, I had two calls and then recently last week I had another call. Three of these people said similar things, which was that. Oh, I just knew when I got in a room with you, it was gonna be calming and peaceful and it was gonna be a lot of great conversation. I just knew I was gonna like you. And I'm sitting there going, why are they saying that? And they said something similar. Your emails, when they come, they feel so calming. It's like a hug, your post.'cause I belong to a group on school and I post there for women and I post there and they always say how calming they, those are your posts are always so calming. And then they come into the zoom room, I was gonna ask you if I can sit a few more minutes in your waiting room on Zoom. And I'm sitting there going, why? And she said, you have the coffee steaming, you have the nice jazz playing when you come through your waiting room on Zoom, and then you open up the camera and then I see all of this. And I went, oh my gosh. I'm gonna have to tell Debbie, personal branding Work that is right. Cheryl, you talk often about, having a porch conversation. Yeah. because of you growing up in, Orleans, new Orleans, new Orleans. Yeah. and that is really what your brand is. That's what people are describing. you are so approachable and so comfortable and and you're right. That's, there is an evolution of understanding that. Wow. Yeah. And, what people are really saying too in a not direct way, but like they can trust you. Yeah. Because you are what you are everywhere and that's the part that really helps you win. I mean, honestly. Yeah. That's fantastic. I'm awakening to it because I do listen. When people share information, I don't just say, oh, thank you for sharing. I really do reflect on it and then I notice the pattern. So there's a pattern there. So how can I keep that going? Well, I teach my clients the same thing. How do you keep going when you find this new thing about you? too often we start with the problem when actually, and I know even in marketing, we start with giving people the problem. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Once I get into the coaching, though. What I'm doing in coaching though, is I'm trying to help them to find the hope and so that hope is in the strength. Oh yeah. What are your strengths? And so by working with you, I actually am beginning to recognize my strengths, and where they are in this work and everything I've done over the years, that I haven't acknowledged yet. And so I started a new, I didn't start it. I actually created a new, gratitude journal. And when I say that, my, comfort is creating, junk journals and so I'll make a junk journal. So I now have my own personal branding junk journal where I'm doing the gratitude of what I now understand about myself when it comes to my business and branding. cause it's new for me. Wow. Yeah. Well, we're, stay tuned because I am on this gratitude and sort of journey of expansion and it's actually something that I'm gonna figure out how. and I'm doing it with my boyfriend, Claude, and my husband knows, but it's okay. Me and Claude and my gratitude. And then I have some business stuff built into it and it's been really powerful. So I think that is really cool. I have to mention to you, our client, Emily, who is a new client, she was saying to me when she got on the call, this is just to emphasize this personal branding thing she was saying, actually it wasn't on the call after we had the call, I sent out a survey that says, tell us about your experience. And what she said on the survey was, I was so surprised when you came on the camera and the Debbie that I had been watching on YouTube and that I had been listening to, literally you looked just like her and you sounded just like her and there was no difference in how you presented yourself. And she was like, I knew. It had to be you. And so I asked her, well, what do you mean? And that's what your people are saying to you, Cheryl. That's what they're saying. Mm-hmm. It's there's this connection. And she said, well, I mean, literally I had calls with people before you, she was looking at coaches. I had calls and it looked like they had just not made any attempt at getting ready. And she said, and what I thought was, I'm not even important enough that they have gotten themselves together to show up as an expert and to show up as their best self because I was important to 'em. Which I thought was so interesting. Like they hadn't taken, made the effort to look like they had gotten prepared for the call that they were gonna have with her. Wow. I always, when, especially when I come into our coaching sessions, there are days that what is it at? I think it's eight o'clock in the morning for me. Yeah, yeah. And so I am so sleepy in that moment. So I literally, you'll notice I don't turn my camera on. Yeah. Because sometimes I'll be in the bed, but you will be, and you and Thais are all set up and ready and it was like, oh, they got up this morning for me. And so if you notice now I get up and I'm on camera now because I'm like, Hey, I'm retired now so I can do that early morning call. But I've been practicing, that with all of my calls where I even sign on at nine, let's just say nine 30, if I'm not on, I'm actually, it's already set up, but I'm sitting at the computer because I started thinking about what would I do if I had to drive to the college? I wouldn't show up at 10 o'clock when, you know, right. When it starts. That's right. it's your job. I mean, yeah. It doesn't, it's not sexy saying it that way, but this is your job. Yeah. And even though this is mine now, which I'm loving, but I only work in it Monday through Wednesdays. Really, where I show up is on Mondays and Wednesdays. The other days I may do something in my business, but pretty much I'm trying to learn how to be in my rewire, if you remember I was scared about yes. I love that word. I love that I'm rewiring how I do things for myself and so I use those days to do that. Yeah. It's all about figuring out what does that look like for you, even with my clients when they say, well, it's so busy at work 'cause I work with helping professionals and women who give so much of themselves that. They're not able to find time for themselves. So literally part of even my onboarding is helping them to figure out how they're gonna fit themselves in their work. You know, in this work that they're doing with me as a coach, because they already know and it's on their calendars, the meetings and the clients they're gonna meet with. When are you gonna meet with for yourself? Let's get that on your calendar. So I literally, because I've been there, in this journey, it was, I was, let me see, home visitor, I was a therapist, I can't remember all the names, but it's been different parts of the helping professional. And so coming from that, I understand why we put everyone else first. and we put the background stuff first too, that the client never sees, which is things like, I gotta write in the chart, I gotta do your Medi-Cal, I gotta do, all of that stuff. And then before you know it, it's eight o'clock at night and they haven't created any space in time for themselves. And I just remember saying, that hurts my heart that, they haven't figured out where did they fit in the day. So I think I had to start with me first. To show them how I do that. And so I have this thing where I say, you know, my dean used to know, don't ask Cheryl to work in the summer to teach. In the summer. They will still come and ask and I'll say, thank you so much for asking and thinking of me. But unfortunately I can't do that, because summer was mine for me to work primarily in my business. So tell everybody that is in the helping professions. tell people what you do to support people and what it looks like in your coaching business. well I'll just say what I typically do is, I will help them to understand certain components that we never learned about taking care of ourselves while we take care of others. So things like recognizing what is yours to carry and what's not. So we take a look at your circle of control and influence and concern to find out, I'm really concerned about that person, but I actually can't control. Their outcome. I can control what I do, like I can be there for your sessions. I can give you the resources that you need. Those are things that I can control. And a lot of times, helping them to understand boundaries, what do boundaries, look like? I love that I have this new one that's coming out that is around how to say no, where we literally are writing the scripts for how I say no, because I found that was hard for me to know how to say it. I have no problem with it now because the scripts learn are here in my head where I already know. I want to acknowledge them. I want them to know that, oh, thank you so much for asking me. That I'm honored that you asked me. I want them to know that because maybe later I'll be ready to do that, but my know is gonna still stand, you know, things like that. And boundary setting, mindfulness, I do a lot of mindfulness. because I think that we really have to start recognizing the messages that our body sends to us. And I think that's that therapeutic part coming in that's saying, you had a headache. Do you know why you had a headache? So I take them through, really being present with their body and knowing what's happening in your body when you start stressing. Do you recognize it when you start burning out? Do you recognize it? So I teach them about burnout and yeah, and there's other components to it, but I try to take them through that. But I do it in a way where I get them to understand themselves first and. Don't feel pressured to go fast, go at your pace. And yeah. I just, I have to get to know my clients and learn what their pace is and I help them to acknowledge and be okay with that. Be at peace with that. Yeah. Wow. Are you talking about all of this on your own YouTube channel? Because this is so good and I know what you do, but you're explaining it to me so clearly right now that I can imagine if I was in the helping profession. Yeah. That, like you just said, like that you can't take their, taking their problems home. Like what a load off of somebody. Yeah. If you're able to free them from that, which means that they can go home and be present at home mm-hmm. And feel good about the work that they're doing and not worry that they haven't taken care of something Right. Is essentially what you're saying. Right. The great thing is that my amazing coaches, Debbie and Thais, gave me this wonderful thing this week, but that's why, again, I got so excited about how I can take each one of those because it literally has been scattered, but now I have such a clear understanding of how I can bring that and then also watching you do it, how I can bring components of each one of those, especially when it's each one of the coaching sessions that I have, how I can just randomly go to one and say, this week I'm focusing on this. Monday we're gonna do awareness. Tuesday we're gonna do this, and I'm posting those and I love doing playlists. So I have started doing that and I started with the, quieting the overthinking mind, because that's another thing that happens is that we overthink a lot of times and there are reasons why we're doing it. And so that's where I started is with those videos, where I have a playlist of the overthinking mind, where I'm going through with brain bookmarks. And just so you know, one of the other coaches, and that's one of the things I love about your program also, is that, we get to collaborate and we get to talk. And I never knew what to name this thing that I would give to my clients. And one person said, how about brain bookmarks? And I went, oh yeah, I remember that. That's amazing. I love that idea. And so now I have where I have the playlist of brain bookmarks, you know, things where, get that off your mind when you go home because it's written down somewhere on your desk that this is where I'm gonna pick up. I needed that for myself because I would start a playlist and then I would forget what was my next one gonna be, And so I started doing this, my using my brain bookmarks to make sure, yep. I've used them. I know how good they are. I know how they work now. yeah, I don't know what the question was, but all I know is that my mind just came with that question so much came because it's so much that I've learned and I've done. Because your program is definitely not about just knowing it's about That's right. Put it in action. Do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you were talking about how people, work with you, and I was asking about that, but what else happens in the summer? I'll just say when we're not in the summer, what I normally do is I do my shifting into Peace program, which is helping the helping professional to learn for themselves how to make these shifts for themselves so that stress and burnout isn't becoming the major thing that's happening in their life in the summertime, because I already know I can't do all this alone. So what I do in the summertime is I have my, women's and I call it, Outside the wall, is what I would call it because it's outside of your job that you're doing. Did you know that with all that knowledge and all that experience that you have, that you literally can start, you like your side hustle or you can do one workshop? because for me, what I didn't want is in the summertime, I didn't wanna have to say, sure, I'll teach in the summer. I wanted to be able to say, I'm gonna do my own thing in the summer and begin to build what I know I'm, I want when I retire. So in the summertime what I do is, and I've done this now, this year will be my sixth cohort, yeah, six or seven cohort. and what I do is that I have women who come and they learn how to offer either how to, start coaching themselves. and to take one topic, one thing that they love doing at their job, and let's build something from that. So like for instance, if they're in human services and they love working, with individuals who are in recovery. So I tell them, let's take one topic. Let's make that into a workshop, a course, whatever it is that you want or your YouTube channel. And I showed them how to take that wellness, topic and expand it into something. Because a lot of times when we're doing the work, we think it comes easy and that all of that information could just be given to someone and they use it, and that's not gonna happen. So what I do is I show them how to break it down into smaller pieces. That becomes either your workshop or your course, and that can spearhead your coaching.'cause I never show them how to build a workshop or a course without the coaching piece. And so I teach them that. And literally what I'm doing is I'm taking the techniques that we use in providing therapy and I'm showing individuals how to use that in their coaching business. I'm gonna tell you now, I love my summers in working with women.'cause I see them go from, yeah, this isn't gonna work too. I am so excited about doing this, and I love long-term relationships and so a lot of my clients come back and they'll offer like a session to the future coaches that are in my program, and they'll show them, here's what I built. Here's what I've done since, being in your program. Yeah. So I love that. What a fun idea. Here's what I've done. Boy, maybe I should have everybody come back and do that, inside of our program too. Yeah, that's super exciting. I'm number one on the list if that happens. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, honestly, that's fantastic. What a great idea. And what I forgot to say is that they're getting certified at that point in my wellness, and resilience program that I have. And they literally get to offer it themselves if that's the first thing they wanna offer. So what many of them will do is they'll take one topic from it and that's what they'll expand on, but somehow, and then go back to their jobs and they can even offer it as a training at their jobs. And I started doing that, and now I see others are doing that same thing. Oh my goodness. something's coming up. I don't remember which call it was, where I was talking about. was it you that I was saying having all the materials prepared, like the slide decks and all that? Yep. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. that's, so many ideas and opportunities to even be able to support people even further. So yeah. How many people have you helped in that, would you say? Program? And you said six or seven groups Yeah. Of people. How many people do you think that is? I know the first year I did 12. I limited it to 12 people. And then after that, I always said 20. So I always try to go anywhere between 20 and 30 people in it. but the coaching sessions though, I try to keep them small. I wanna say over the last three years I've had to offer two different sessions and one year was three. so that I can keep the coaching sessions small like ours, which I really enjoy. Where I'm able to address everyone's needs in that 90 minutes that we're meeting. And so I would say I've never had one group in the room that was bigger than probably 15 people at a time, because I'll just create a second one. Yeah. And they will meet one after the other, one hour and a half, and then the next hour and a half. That way I'm staying on topic with whatever it is. And remember I only wanna work Monday through Wednesday, so Yeah. I love that. Yeah. So I mean, you have essentially probably had. A hundred, 150 it d people go. Wow. Yeah. Congratulations for that. That is so fantastic. And I have, yeah. And I have about 20 of them who actually still I hear from them. We pop in a Zoom meeting every now and then just to say hi, things like that. Well, it's good to stay connected for sure. Yeah. Oh, for anybody listening, we will leave all of Cheryl's information so that you can connect with her and you can find out if you are in the helping profession and you wanna find out about how to get certified in her method as well. We definitely wanna leave all that, all those details, because she is actually filling her summer group, for summer 2026. Yeah. right at this moment. Cheryl. As far as the business building boutique goes. Mm-hmm. What would you say to somebody who's thinking like, I don't know, first of all, I don't even know if I have a good business idea. I don't know, do I need this? I know right now I feel like there's so many coaching programs, business coaching programs specifically, that they just don't deliver. They haven't done what they said they were gonna do, and people have spent a lot of money and not gotten what they wanted. Mm-hmm. And there's just a lot of resistance out there to even entertaining one more person to hire. So what would you say to somebody who might be thinking and listening to this right now? I'm thinking, maybe I want to be a coach. I would say, I know one thing I'm gonna start with where I started, which was me sitting down and thinking about where, what do I know? What do I know really well that I want to teach to someone else? Or what do people come to you for advice for? and I knew that people were coming to me when they were at their stressful moment.'cause I remember starting off and me not even knowing what psychology was, and I'm gonna joke and give you this joke I normally, 'cause, I joke a lot. which is that when I told my mom I was becoming a psychologist, she said, oh my lord, my daughter's becoming a psychic. and so even starting there with an understanding about what is coaching and I think one of the first steps is just I had to explain to my mom what psychologists was. but really finding out what is coaching?'cause there's so much out there that is. you like it's not telling us the actual truth of what it is because so many people are out there who aren't doing coaching in the way that's ethical. And I think just like for me, I had to find out what is it actually, and how does it differ from mental health or mental, health work. And so I would say start there, but then, and coming to find that person and like I did with you. That I can go and sit down and listen to, even while I'm in the program right now with you, when you come out with your YouTube or you, do your workshop sessions, I'm there. And it's not because I haven't heard it in the program, it's because I want to, I still wanna learn. I'm a lifelong learner, so I want, I love learning, so I wanna learn more about it because maybe there's something I don't know that I don't know. And so I think it's about being in the environment of coaches, and coaches who are doing it the way that you see ethically, you know, it should be done. And I teach a class on ethics, and so when I, now, when I step in with a coach, I'm looking for that, because that's just something that I've learned to do. but I think knowing that if you're in a helping profession, I cannot think of one topic that would not be in of interest to someone. Because they're coming to you for help for that already, that knowledge and that experience, it's yours. it doesn't belong to the organization. It's mine. So I can create something outta it. And so they may not think that people will listen to them, but so people are warning, and especially right now, the climate we're in right now, people want that support. They want that information. They can find it on YouTube, of course, but wouldn't it be great to find someone who I feel I can trust and I can go and I can listen to them. I'll give an example. Monique does organizing. Yeah. I started junk journaling and here I am, this person who you may think have everything so organized. You know, I love designing things, but when it comes to organizing, that's not my thing. And junk journaling is, and people are probably saying What's junk journaling? but all the things that I get, I didn't know how to organize it. And so I would have this mess. I sat down with her for an hour and before know it, I started seeing how I was able to organize my craft room, And so I always say she, oh my gosh, that is amazing. She's just teaching us how to organize things, but it's not a, just because there's more to it. Yeah, and so it bigger than, and so there may be have been a time that Monique thought that nobody wants to hear this, but then, yeah, I'm hoping she got it from me. As much as I compliment her, you know that no, you taught me so much. I enjoy my junk journaling now because I can organize things, I can find things, it's not stressing me out. So I think in the helping profession, we may not be thinking that this little thing that I offer to people, that it's anything someone wants to hear you won't know until you try it. Well, you know, I'm not the most eloquent at, mindset and coaching and all that kind of stuff, but I always say, your primitive brain, the bratty brain is the one who's telling you that what you have to say or what you think you wanna do you know, it's not anything that's good enough. It's not anything anybody will pay you for. And I always say we have to overcome that obstacle.'cause you're right, there literally is practically no niche. That's not mm-hmm. A viable niche. And I really appreciate what you said about being ethical, because that also is one thing that myself and Thais, both when I'm on a consultation call with somebody and they start talking about what their niche is, and they're like, I'm gonna do trauma. What? I'm like, okay, hold up like Big T trauma. No. If you are not qualified to do that, you cannot do that. and if you're also in the middle of. You're gonna help around something. Mm-hmm. That you're not all the way through. No. You can't do that either. you know you gotta be Yeah. That's coaches. People are going wrong with. Yeah. And that's what hurts. I mean, there's in every industry those, there are things like that. But that's one of the things that gives coaches a bad name is because people are not qualified to do some of the things that they think they want to do. So it's important to find Yeah. The thing that you actually could and should do. Yeah. Even for me, you know, me having the background in mental health work, even when I do my trauma, trainings. I make sure in the beginning it's in writing, but I also will say it, I'll put it on the screen that, I'm a doctor, I'm not your doctor. So make sure that you go and you talk with your doctor and this information works alongside what your doctor is saying. yeah. So I even, for me, I put that disclaimer out there and make sure people understand. even with my students at the college. I'm not here to be your therapist. I am here to be your coach. Those are two different things.'cause I have a handout about it and I also have a video about it that lets them know this is what I do, is do the coaching. I even, this is how ethical I am with it. I provide, my therapeutic work all the way an hour away from where I do my coaching work. that's the extreme. But even with my students, I teach an hour away from where my, the clinic is, because I don't want there to be this confusion about what role I'm in. And if people bring it up, or I see it come up, I'm great. I have two therapists, that I connect with, that I refer them to when I realize this person may need therapy. And I'll introduce it to them and I'll say, I can still work with you, but at the same time, let me give you a referral to two therapists that, I'm connected with. Okay. We've got so much to talk about and I gotta ask you another question that I think will be really valuable. I'm having fun because chances are there are therapists that are listening to this and it, so it's gonna be like therapists at counsel. I mean, there's lots of names of that type of profession. What would you say about a woman who is in that position I say woman 'cause that's, mm-hmm. I work with just women and that's who I work. Who's in that position? Who is saying like, oh my goodness, like I can't stand the battle with insurance. I wanna be able to help, but there's so many, like restrictions around what I'm doing and I wanna have more flexibility with my hours and I don't wanna have somebody breathing down my neck. And could I pull this off? The lady that I talked to yesterday that just became a client, she was saying that, in Maryland the last time she had billing done by the hour, which has been in 2019, I think she said it was$380 cash pay per hour, and she made 60. And she was like, there's just, first of all, three 80 cash pay. Yeah. There's something wrong with that. So for somebody who is in this type of thing, what would you say about them being a coach? What is Your thoughts about that? I think there's a question of respect maybe. Yeah. Are people gonna respect you as a coach? Being a former, the therapist? Yeah. when we were in our, graduate program from the day we enter into it, you are hearing about how not to be a coach. But what I see even today is that many of the therapists or clinical psychologists are realizing that, this one-to-one is not bringing in what I need. So like you said, the individual, after all of that, only got $60 out of it. What they're beginning to understand is that, I can still do coaching though. I can still have a group coaching program, I can do things like that. And that is my side business. and I think that's one of the things is that confusion about what coaching is again, and understanding how there can be a division between the two, and I actually do work with two therapists right now who came in saying, I don't think that I can do this because I can't split them up. And me trying to help them to understand and to see, and because part of, I, I have this, little group when in the summertime when the group comes in, if any of them are therapists, I actually meet with them separately, to try to reduce the confusion that they have or the misunderstanding they have that I'll get in trouble with my licensing because I'm doing coaching when, actually, no, the licensure can't Direct what you can do with the knowledge and the experience you have. You just have to make sure your clients understand. And I think that for them, it really is about meeting with someone who has an understanding of how you can split the two separate mental health work from the coaching work that you're doing and how you remain, keeping those separations, I don't know if I answered your question, but I know that's what, yeah. Okay. I know. That's what came up in my mind is yeah, I think that there's not enough people out there that understands that's able to explain it to them. you know, as I'm seeing, I don't know if it's growing for you or not, but I know that by being in the program, I'm seeing more and more of the therapists and I get excited when I see them. Yeah. Because I'm like, oh, I'm so glad that they understand. And I have one that we talk often where we are looking at doing some things, some collaborations, together, and, She's amazing, Yeah. And I can see what growth can happen there. And I think it's just the mindset of understanding there's a separation, but someone has to be there to, explain it to them so they see that there's this division between the two, and you actually can still create this other thing on the side, you know? and for me, I will only work with a client who's a therapist after they've been out a few years, because I know how much we get, in our mindset that, nope, coaching is back. Don't do it. I don't work through that with them. What I work with is them saying, there's gotta be something more I can do. Then I can step in and work on that and move them forward. So good. Well, you're right. We have four therapists right now, in our group, four therapists that I can think of right off the top of my head. and over the years, I mean, I've worked with a lot of therapists, but I've had a probably more calls recently with people in therapy for the same reason. They're just tired of the The restrictions and the limitations and all that. yeah. as we wrap this up, what would you say has changed about you since you came to work with us? Ooh, that's so many to pick from. Okay. one, I think the way that I present myself to the world because I am gonna use this word, I hid behind WJ Developmental as the name. Yes. Yes. I, yeah. And I hid behind, not putting my face out there, pictures out there. It really was that I needed to hear that it's okay for you to do that, or you have this amount of knowledge and you're hiding, because I'm gonna use the word hiding. You never said that, but, and Thais never said that, but I started saying, why am I hiding? I've gotten used to hearing my voice. I did that years ago, but I never got used to, pulling up like my YouTube. Now I'll see my face pop up, and I don't cringe anymore at that because I think I'm in an environment where I'm not only learning, but I'm watching and I'm seeing how you are doing it, how the other coaches are doing it, how they're putting their name out there, how they're putting their faces out there. And I realized. I needed to do that. And so now I do post with my picture on things, you know, well just about everything now. But yeah, I use the name Dr. Cheryl Coaching, Yep. Yeah. I have to say has been the one of the biggest thing. And the second one, if it's okay for me to share with you Yeah, please. is that I am very much a systems person. I have a group of books that are all about systems. I think I moved them in another place, but, they're my go-to books around, and I'm looking over here at Systemic coaching. I'm looking at a book that's behind me because systems is what I live. So family systems, because I work with groups, I work with families, especially in therapy. I love working with families. and those are all systems. So when I see. something that looks and sounds like a system that's gonna grab me where I want to hear more. And so when I came in the program, I could see the different systems in place. I can see the order. It was like, it made sense to me. I'm one of those people who if you throw numbers out, they're doing this. But if you put that, if you put those numbers in a system, then I see this and then I can see how I can use it here. And we, in psychology, we call it, generalizable, that I can see how that system is generalizable. I can use it in different ways. and you'll have to help me, but I know the personal branding and then business branding. Yeah. I began to see the system there and then the next step around social media. Mm-hmm. It connected me to, there's a system there for how I can do my social media. There's a system there, how I can do my brochure and the information that goes in that brochure. Yeah. Because even with the website, it didn't take me long to, to put my website to together again, because of the system that you had in place, that, here's where this goes and here's where your three, and you'll have to tell me the three things. Three results, yeah. Three. Three results that you are. Oh my gosh. That made so much sense to me that things just within two weeks things just came together. the only thing that slowed me down was, like we always say the tech, but yeah. I already know with the tech, I reach out to the tech people who can do that, and tell me how do I set this up? But seeing that system in place has really. Guided me into making these changes that I'm making right now. And I have to tell you that when I hit my six months, I started getting so nervous. I was like, I have something great going here And the program's going to end for me. What do I do? And I just, you were asking like I only have this much more time. And I was thinking in my mind like, she should stay a little bit longer. Yeah. I didn't know that I could stay. I didn't know. And then when you reminded me, I went, oh, she did tell me that. Yeah. That this is how I can stay on. Yeah. And here I am. Yeah. Yeah. I'm still learning. I'm still on this journey and the journey is just beautiful. and those are my two greatest takeaways so far. Yeah. Well, you are just a delight because I love action takers and you take the action and, I love the awareness and feedback that you have and that you take the feedback. I mean, I remember When you told me what your company name was, I was like, I don't know. Nobody's gonna know what that is and it won't make sense to anybody else. you've taken, and I said, you don't have to change your website 'cause your website was already done. But those things evolve. You see like, wait, my website doesn't make sense. I do need to change it to what she says. yeah. and you've been a great addition to the summit, just to everything. thank you. Everything that we have going on. and the most, and Debbie, the most validating thing was to hear my girlfriend yesterday, just yesterday, say to me, I see what's happening and I'm loving what I'm seeing and I wanna know who are you talking to that's helping you to do that. which meant there's a change that has taken place, but also because I'm seeing, even though I started my YouTube in like 2020, I never really did anything with it. And even if I have 20 or 30, subscriber, that was. 29 more than I had over the last five years, you know? Yeah, yeah. Oh, so yeah. You gotta start somewhere girl, don't you? Yeah. Yeah. we're grateful for every one of those that comes in. Yes. Yeah. And the way YouTube is, it's like you start slow and steady. It's and then the next thing you know, you're like, whoa. Like somehow it's really working. Yeah. And it's not somehow it's that you did it. Yeah. yeah, I see the changes myself, not only in people's voices, but also as I look on, when I go online and I look, or, the coaching calls that I have right now with, some of my clients and just hearing them, what you are doing, I wanna say is. You are making my life so much smoother. but it also is, illuminating what I wanna do and helping me to be able to put it out there.'cause right now I have a new way of doing things and even though right now I'm revamp, I'm rewiring it right now. Yeah. even though I'm rewiring it, it's like I'm looking at my own onboarding next week. I'm focusing on my onboarding. It looks different now because I've seen how you do your onboarding and I now see what I'm missing in mine and what I need to add in. So there's just so much. And I love talking to you that whenever our coaching calls in, I'm like, is she about to say something else, you know, or Thais, no, this journey has really been, I know I've been highlighting what, you and Thais have been giving me, but I feel I need to because It is a new phase in my coaching journey and my business journey, my Entrepr entrepreneurship journey. And I see it very loud and clear and I have to say thank you for that. Yeah. Oh, you're so welcome. What a joy. If you are a helping professional, I'm gonna leave all of Cheryl's information below. and you need some support and I am pretty sure you do need some support. We know what helping professionals are. They have a lot on their plate. Yeah. that's why they need you. I'll make sure I leave those details there so you can connect with Cheryl and Cheryl. Thank you for passing on my name to your friend and to your sister, your sweet sister, and to anyone else. So I greatly appreciate you too and what a fun conversation we have. Yes. and I just wanna invite people to come sit on the porch with me, even though it's a Zoom call. Come sit on the porch and talk with me. Yeah. Yes. I love that. you can tell you're from the south girl. That's it. Yes, I am. All right, everybody, have a beautiful day and we'll talk to you very soon. Bye-Bye.
